Episode 73: Leading Through Positivity

Steve, Co-host (00:01)
Hey friends, welcome back to Under the Hat. Super pumped to be here this morning. And as always, I'm your co-host, Steve Martinez, and I'm joined by...

Sophie, Co-host (00:10)
the sparkling and wonderful Sophie, your other co-host. Good morning, everyone, or afternoon, or evening, or whenever you're listening to this.

Steve, Co-host (00:18)
Wherever whatever right? ⁓ so yeah, so sophie, how are how are things on your end? What is what is top of mind? What is something that you feel you have to get off your chest right now?

Sophie, Co-host (00:30)
I hate winter.

Steve, Co-host (00:32)
That's fair. That's fair. ⁓

ChuckMossEDU (00:32)
.

Sophie, Co-host (00:35)
That's what's on top of mind right now. It is cold, it

is windy, it is so much snow and ice. I still have like three inches of ice with like an inch or two of snow in my driveway. I am ready. I'm ready. I'm ready for spring, very much so. What about you, Steve?

Steve, Co-host (00:52)
You know, things are things are fairly busy on my side we are in the thick of like getting our interns ready for the next academic year so doing all the pre-rec stuff out here in Cali ⁓ and something that I'm hearing a lot from them is just like the nervousness of like wait a classroom is going to be my own classroom and so they want to do it but it's also kind of scary right if you've never done it before and so

While that's been like fun, but it's also like I feel like I'm empathetic. So I kind of like, ⁓ I feel that but we're here for you kind of thing. So that's what that for me is what's top of mind.

Sophie, Co-host (01:35)
Great. Yeah. I loved decorating and putting my classroom together to make it like a homey space. That was one of my favorite things to do at the beginning of the school year or when I get into a new building. ⁓ Yeah. Well, nice chatting with you, Steve, but I'm here to actually talk with Chuck. And so today's guest has spent 29 years navigating the complexities of education as a teacher, coach and district director. And he's currently back.

in the assistant principal office by choice trading the district view for the daily face-to-face work of building a school culture that sticks. Chuck focuses on a ripple effect of leadership, equipping staff to be their best so that the energy reaches every student in the hallway. And his philosophy is don't be afraid to be awesome. And it's not just a soft mantra. It has high bar status for recognizing your specific value and having the guts to use it to improve your community.

Thanks so much for being on the show, Chuck. For those of us who don't know you, please tell us a little bit about your educational journey.

ChuckMossEDU (02:37)
Yeah. So like you said, 29 years. And it all started in an eighth grade civics and English classroom. And I loved it. At first I suffered from imposter syndrome, which I think all of us in education do every time we get a new job. And then I realized after a little while, maybe I could do that.

⁓ I did that for eight or nine years and then moved into administration. I was assistant principal at an elementary school, then at a middle school. Then I actually went back into the classroom because I was starting to distribute all this wonderful technology and had no idea to tell teachers how to use it or if they were using it right. And so I went back in the classroom for a couple of years, became very familiar with that. Like I got to the point where

At first I was afraid of my Promethean board, but then I learned I could not teach a lesson without it. ⁓ And so then I felt more equipped to talk to teachers about where we're going, what the trends are going to be. Went back into administration, up here in Denwood County in Virginia, kind of the southern central part of Virginia. And been here for 11 years, an AP principal, school board director, and I'm back to the AP role.

That's because the grant money that paid for me to be a director ran out. And the opportunity, only opportunity was for under system principalship. And I thought, I'll try that again. ⁓ Not exactly the career trajectory I saw myself on, but I've realized since I've been back in that role that my impact is greatest there. ⁓ My impact on kids, my impact on families. And so I really have re-embraced.

the role. And it's funny because when I first became an assistant principal, I said, I can see myself retiring as an assistant principal. And I might because my travels have taken me back there. ⁓ again, I just feel like it's a different kind of position. You're more able to be directly involved with the students, with the parents, with the community.

Steve, Co-host (04:55)
Yeah.

Sophie, Co-host (04:56)
fantastic.

Steve, Co-host (04:59)
love the just that part of your story of the career changing, right? And ⁓ I think like, I don't, I see it, but I don't see it like a lot where like they, they go back to the classroom, right? And you know, like normally in a district, if they're going to move into admin or instructional coach, like the chances are they're not going to go back. And, and you know, I, that resonates with me because that's something that, that I did. I did go back for.

ChuckMossEDU (05:21)
Okay.

Steve, Co-host (05:29)
for a little bit. It was longer than a month. ⁓ And so that's a different story for a different day. like, know, like I, I just think that like that speaks volumes to you as an educator and others like you that like, no, I'm going to go back and because I miss kids. mean, and so I'm kind of curious, like, like, what was, what was the other like motivating factors there of, of, of going back in the classroom?

Sophie, Co-host (05:31)
months.

ChuckMossEDU (05:56)
Well, I mean, the first time was really just changing districts and truly believing that to be able to best talk to teachers about what they were doing, what tools they had, I needed to be familiar with the tools. ⁓ And this last change was frankly just because the grant money ran out. And honestly, I didn't initially embrace the idea, but then after Open House back at Dimwitty Elementary,

Steve, Co-host (06:00)
Mm-hmm.

Mm.

ChuckMossEDU (06:23)
where we are four birds, one nest. We have a house system, four different ⁓ birds, because the eagle is our mascot. So all of our houses are birds. So we're four birds, we're one nest. And I've just been able to really just kind of find a niche with those folks. just, I remember someone wrote me a card that said, thank you for...

being the kind of person who I just met, but I feel like I've known for years. And that for me, it was like, okay, I'm in the right place. ⁓ And I didn't necessarily know that I was gonna be, but ⁓ that community embraced me and I embraced them. And again, I just found that I could have the most direct impact there. ⁓ And frankly, also at the end of the day, if I have to, I can say I'm going home.

You know, my name is not on any of the state reports. So if I have to, I can go home. But just again, I feel like that impact is important. And like you said, ⁓ Sophie, my whole why is to bring out the best in people so they can bring out the best in those around them. And I feel like I get to do that more directly because of my role. I'm in the cafeteria, I'm welcoming the car. We did Elf on the Shelf.

you know, in the holidays. And so I became the elf of the building in the middle of a driving rainstorm. But that's what people remember. It's things like that. And you can have those kind of impacts when you're in the role of the assistant principal, because you're kind of like, yes, you have to do some of the discipline and you absolutely are involved in the academics and things like, but you're also kind of like the court jester.

You get to wear the ridiculous costumes, you get to do all the things that the kids are going to have the most memories of. Because like we were saying earlier, some of the best teachers I ever had, if you asked me what they taught me, I don't know that I could tell you. But if you asked me how they made me feel, how they empowered me, I can absolutely tell you that.

Steve, Co-host (08:24)
Yep.

Sophie, Co-host (08:38)
Yeah.

Steve, Co-host (08:39)
That right there.

Sophie, Co-host (08:41)
Yeah.

And that goes both ways, right? Those teachers that you didn't necessarily feel safe with and those teachers that you did feel safe with. So it sort of molds the type of teacher that you're going to be because you know what not to do and what you want to create in that space. Yeah.

ChuckMossEDU (08:44)
Thank

Right. Well, and I also

want to make sure teachers feel safe with me. You know, when I go in for an observation, if they suddenly feel like the ice they've been walking on has become very thin, then I have not done enough to establish my relationship with them. ⁓ Because I got to make sure they trust me before I go in to do an observation or evaluation or anything like that.

Steve, Co-host (09:01)
Mm.

Sophie, Co-host (09:21)
I can definitely speak for experience that getting called to the principal's office is still absolutely terrifying. Still absolutely terrifying. And if that like, but I did.

ChuckMossEDU (09:28)
Yeah, I know. That's why I was gonna say, whenever I have

to do that, I try to tell the person why they're coming. Because if I tell them at lunchtime, I need to see you after the buses leave, then by the time they get to me, they're already packing up their classroom. And so I need to make sure that I have a conversation with them beforehand. I say, hey, I need to talk to you about blank so that they're not coming up with all the worst case scenarios in their head.

Steve, Co-host (09:57)
So, the other thing, ⁓ Chuck, I'm sure you do this already, but a thought just occurred as you're explaining that. The other thing is tone of voice, right? Whether it's an email or verbally, it could be something exciting. It could be a project. It could be a moment of gratitude, let's say, right? Don't just leave that out and leave that big question mark for someone to then like...

ChuckMossEDU (10:08)
yeah.

Steve, Co-host (10:27)
roll that over and live in their own brain for like half a day.

ChuckMossEDU (10:30)
Right. Yeah, that's

exactly. And then we don't have a huge building. But if I've got to get somebody to say, need to talk to you after I try to, if I can't, if I can't get to the room, I'll try to call them. So there is a tone of voice there because the tone of voice in every email is severity. I don't think there's a severity font, but if it were, Google would use it. And so, you know, you just have to make sure.

Steve, Co-host (10:46)
Mm.

ChuckMossEDU (10:58)
that you're communicating with that tone of voice, they just don't feel like the, you know, there's a shoe dropping. I don't want them to feel like that.

Steve, Co-host (11:08)
Yeah.

Sophie, Co-host (11:08)
Well, and

then there's some brains and days and people that their own lens, it doesn't matter how nice you say it. If you don't explain the why behind it, my brain's one of those brains. It's immediately catastrophe. So yeah.

ChuckMossEDU (11:22)
Yeah. And it is so

easy to get caught up in your agenda or your calendar for the day that you've, you, you skipped the Y part. but that, that is so important to be able to, to stop and say, I need, here's why I need to talk to you. ⁓ and the thing too is if you're going to say to them, I need to talk to you, then you better be available when they need to talk to you. You know, that's, that's, that's really important for me.

Steve, Co-host (11:47)
Hmm.

So this is, okay, so this kind of brings up a different point that I think is like really critical here. So like I didn't realize before I moved into like a leadership role, just how much it could be. And I'm not saying that teachers don't work hard. I'm not saying that. I'm also not saying that like that work is like, they be working a lot and that is a lot within its own.

But like what I found, like it was just shocking of when you're looking after so many humans, right? Whether it's in higher ed or K through 12, that it's like how Chuck, what is your advice for that? Because like, like, you know, I think what you're saying is super good of like, yeah, you need to be accessible to these people. You need to consider tone of voice, how you communicate. But that takes bandwidth, right? So I'm just curious what, what

your experiences are and like your advice to all of us that are in those leadership type of roles.

ChuckMossEDU (12:57)
Right.

I wish I had a specific, if I had a product I could sell, I could retire. ⁓ That is about, you know, developing more bandwidth. I think a lot of it, it just comes, pardon me. Sorry. It comes down to, I guess, maybe prioritizing or really seeing what the nature of something is. like, if you're in the middle of something,

Steve, Co-host (13:08)
Right, right.

ChuckMossEDU (13:30)
what can you table for a moment to try to take care of whatever that teacher is calling you? Because if a teacher calls and says, need you to come talk to this student, what that means to me is they've exhausted all of their options. They're reaching out to you for help. And how many times in your life have you reached out for help and haven't gotten it ahead and make you feel, and I don't want to be the person that makes somebody feel like that. And so if I can't get to the classroom, then I'll say,

I need you to send them down to the classroom and tell them we got cameras in the hallway so I'll know what they did on the way here. And, you know, that way you can at least get them moving. I can go out to the office and meet them, bring them back. Sometimes I'll say send them down with whatever they're working on. ⁓ Sometimes a kid just needs a moment of some restorative practices, ⁓ you know, to get them reset. I do not believe in bringing a kid to my office and giving him a drink.

and then sending them back to class as a reward. I just can't buy that. But I do believe that sometimes when a kid is acting out, they're out of control. There's a sense of loss of control. How can I help them reestablish that control? And then how can we talk about what they're in control of and get them back into the classroom? Sorry, you're talking about bandwidth. That teacher's bandwidth...

is significantly reduced by that kid being in their classroom. And so part of my responsibility to that teacher is to help them reestablish that band.

Steve, Co-host (15:06)
Yeah.

Sophie, Co-host (15:09)
Something that you brought up that I've heard over and over again, because I was a middle school math science tech teacher and then I was a instructional coach. And so being that instructional coach ⁓ gave me some insight that Steve didn't get going from teacher to a leadership position. ⁓ And so like I was like the guide on the side as the coach. So I could also, I was also one of the people they would vent to and just to like hear things. so the, go to the office, they get a sucker and then they come back.

was a thing, right? And I immediately am like, okay, but is that a sensory need that that child needed to self-regulate? Like, did, was that, yeah, and so like,

ChuckMossEDU (15:47)
It

might be, but they can have that sucker in my office. I don't need to send them back to a room where we're like, that kid left angry and came back with a sucker. I want to leave angry and come back with a sucker. I got to think about how I can positively impact the moment rather than create a new problem.

Sophie, Co-host (15:58)
with the sucker still.

That's extremely powerful, yes. But I also realized, because some teachers don't even think about that. ⁓ I have two autistic sons. So the whole self-regulation and behaviorist communication is very top of mind for me every single day. So the fact that you're like, that child needs to regulate, they need to process, they need to go through something, they needed something because they're acting out. ⁓ There was a need not being met. And I find that extremely refreshing.

coming from an administrator. And that's something that I feel like more people and teachers all need to be aware of. And the fact that you are conscious of what that message sends when you send the child back, they had the sucker, but they're not going back in the classroom with the sucker is that missing piece that I feel like lot of it, like administrators are trying to do this regulation thing, but like that's the missing piece. How does it look when they go back that way? ⁓

ChuckMossEDU (17:02)
Right.

Steve, Co-host (17:13)
Hmm.

Sophie, Co-host (17:14)
So, fantastic.

ChuckMossEDU (17:15)
Well, and I always,

I tell kids when they go back to the classroom, said, I'm not going to force you to apologize because I don't believe in forced apologies. Forced apologies don't mean, but do you think you should apologize because of what happened? And a lot of them will say yes and a lot of them will say no, but you you do start to make an impact. And one other thing I like to do, really probably my go-to is when the kids come to my office and they're just really having a hard time.

I'll pull out a little table hockey that I put on my desk and we'll play that game back and forth. And it's amazing the conversations you can have with kids when their goal is to get the puck through the goal. They stop having all the walls up that kept you from having a meaningful conversation. So you could talk about that. And, but it's also the same thing as taking a walk down the hall. have these wonderful sensory walk.

Steve, Co-host (17:59)
you

ChuckMossEDU (18:11)
things that our county has purchased for us and our exceptional education department make sure we're put down. And it's just little things like walk along the path in the order of ABCs or jump from number to number. And just having that task to occupy, you know, the front part of the brain, you can start to have conversations and whatnot. And it's amazing what it does with regulation because it provides the regulation.

And then once you're in a safe space and your brain feels like it's in a safe space, they're better able to reflect and we can talk about what our next step needs to

Steve, Co-host (18:47)
This is so intentional like Because when I can only speak for myself like my memory of being in school as a child and even all the way through high school is like a kid gets pulled out and They're gonna be like this kind of dark room not dark room but like, know this room where there's like it's secluded and the What happens is it's like you just sit there and do your work in isolation you

Sophie, Co-host (18:52)
Yes.

ChuckMossEDU (19:15)
All right.

Steve, Co-host (19:17)
You're in the hole, right? And that, what does that actually solve? Absolutely nothing.

Sophie, Co-host (19:27)
There's no co-regulation, there's no de-escalation, that's just more isolation and increased cortisol, and you're not actually processing anything or working through anything when you're in a situation like that. And I think the research and everything that everyone's doing now would just be phenomenal. Everyone would die that day. Anyways.

ChuckMossEDU (19:51)
Well, we don't, we of course, we don't have an in-school room, in-school suspension room. But when a student has reached the point where you feel like, okay, we need to remove you from the big room for a little while, they are in the office with us. They are not in a place where they just have to sit and get. There's someone who can help make sure that they're meeting their needs while they're in there that can assist them. And if they are a student with an IEP, they receive services also.

Steve, Co-host (19:57)
Mm-hmm.

ChuckMossEDU (20:21)
during that time. Because, and I think we all know that sometimes separating people from a situation is just to allow everybody to get a deep breath. Not just the person being separated, but the room too, the classroom, you know. But you still have to make learning happen and you still have to make the person feel important and valued. And I think the way we do that at our school anyway, is by the principal, the assistant principal, even the bookkeeper will stop by.

the student and say, tell me why you're here, what's going on? Do you need anything? What did you order for lunch? So we can get your lunch. They don't feel that sense of isolation. It's not, put up a study Carol and we'll see in six hours. We just can't do that.

Steve, Co-host (21:07)
Hmm. I'd love to pivot a little bit if that's okay. Cause so Chuck, I, I first felt like I met you, ⁓ kind of in a similar way that that I met Sophie, but like, ⁓ just seeing you online, right. And, ⁓ I, I first note, I had my first notice on Tik TOK and, ⁓ I just loved your

Sophie, Co-host (21:09)
love that.

ChuckMossEDU (21:14)
Yeah.

Steve, Co-host (21:36)
consistency, like I feel like, and I'm gonna butcher it, but like, like you have like a, like maybe like a, like a Monday kind of post and it's very, it feels very on brand and it's very, ⁓ so I'll allow you to talk about that. Like, I just, I just love, it's just like pure positivity and also like, what are we thinking and how could we engage with other humans? That's kind of like the vibe I get from it.

ChuckMossEDU (21:47)
Right.

Right. Well, and that daily posting started way back during the pandemic shutdown because I was the principal of the middle school. And one of the things I loved to do was open car doors in the morning and welcome kids to the building and that kind of thing. And I couldn't do that because we were at home. We were shut down. So I would send out a message, a minute long in the morning and we had

Mindful Monday, Talk to Me Tuesday, Wellness Wednesday, or no, Watch This Wednesday, because I wanted people to post back. And then we had Thoughtful Thursday and Follow Friday. And that was ⁓ usually I would highlight somebody that I wanted them to follow. And those names for the days of the week and whatnot have kind of fallen by the side, but I still post every day because I was amazed by the connection I was making, not just with our kids.

But with people who are seeing those posts and we're like, hey, that's speaking to something that I'm dealing with right now. you know, I don't believe in toxic positivity. I don't believe you can just sit there and be positive in the face of everything in every moment. But positivity is a belief that a positive thing will come from the moment you're in. And that's what a lot of those posts are.

Steve, Co-host (23:04)
Mm-hmm.

ChuckMossEDU (23:27)
When you see those posts, that's usually the fourth or fifth time I've started it or ⁓ tried to ⁓ really polish up what I was saying, but rarely do I prepare something for those messages. Usually I just like to say, because it's something that has affected me the day before or something that's on my calendar that's coming up. And it is kind of a way for me to remember, hey, this is how you need to handle things too. But I just love to...

Steve, Co-host (23:54)
Yeah.

ChuckMossEDU (23:56)
be able to share that. Because if my why is to bring out the best in people, the only way I can do that is by reaching out and connecting with

Steve, Co-host (24:05)
I love the concept of not preparing before doing something that's my whole life. ⁓ But it makes it authentic though, right? Like it's just true what's on your mind and what's in your heart at that moment. Yeah, so yeah, I felt like you had something.

Sophie, Co-host (24:09)
Of course you do.

ChuckMossEDU (24:11)
you

Yeah.

Sophie, Co-host (24:33)
struggle with that because I get too wordy and I pick the wrong words in the moment. So I do try to prep a little bit more. ⁓ Just like your intro today, it went through three different iterations with Jim and I before I actually was like, I like this one and brought it in. It's just, like, my words are very intentional when I'm going out ⁓ on social media and stuff. So I want that to be that way. ⁓

Props to you for being able to do that so much.

ChuckMossEDU (25:02)
Well, and I think situationally, preparation

is very important in certain situations. But I, kind of like what Steve was saying, there's a connection I can make. Because when it's not polished and it doesn't seem canned, I feel like people are more into the message. And it's just a one-minute blurb. If I were speaking to a group, ⁓

You know, like when I do my, don't be afraid to be awesome keynote, I have a slide deck. I have all these different things that we do. I have interactive activities that the audience does, things like that. That is all planned and all out there. But when I'm just, when I finished my coffee and I'm out on the deck and making sure that the dog is getting ready for the day, that's a great opportunity for me just to take a minute to say, hey, remember this is what you need to.

Make sure you do it for the people around you and help them be successful.

Steve, Co-host (26:01)
Yeah, and correct me if I'm wrong, but Chuck, almost all of your content is exclusively video, right? Like I've not seen you do like text posts, right? Like

ChuckMossEDU (26:13)
⁓ I'll do one every now and then. ⁓ That's actually how it started, believe it or not. ⁓ And every so often I'll put one out that's just a text post. And of course, when TikTok was pushing there, make it into a text, I'm like, I'll try that. I feel like also that by doing it with video and whatnot, that tone of voice we talked about before, that's where you hear that. ⁓

Steve, Co-host (26:19)
Okay.

Hmm.

ChuckMossEDU (26:42)
We're talking about how important punctuation is, how a comma can save someone's life. And I think that tone of voice is the same way, ⁓ because I can deliver the same message in three different tone of voices, and you will hear it three different ways.

Steve, Co-host (26:59)
Yes, I.

Sophie, Co-host (27:00)
It's that

unscripted authenticity that comes with video that ⁓ you can't get just from text because if it's in text, then they're putting their own lens over it when they're reading it and you can take it differently. that's, and me personally, I want to see your lips moving. I want to see, that's the message. I want to see your body language. I want to see your lips moving. As Steve knows, I read lips very well because that's what I look at when I'm talking to people. ⁓

Yeah, so it's really great. And then you're just doing this while you're doing other things. So it's sort of like whatever was on top of mind in the moment. I am curious. You say that your messages are like, is what you could do to help uplift other people and to be there for other people. What's your latest one? I didn't watch it.

ChuckMossEDU (27:51)
Oh, boy. Okay, the last one, did not, that is very, thank you for being so vulnerable, Sophie. My latest one was just do your best because you're not gonna make everybody happy. You're not gonna achieve every goal that might've been set in front of you for the day. But if you can, at the end of the day, say you did your best, then you can lay your head on your pillow comfortably.

Steve, Co-host (28:16)
Mm.

And so important for folks that are in the thick of it, right? Like we're in February in some states that's, if we're not already in testing season, right? Or test prep. Yeah. I...

Sophie, Co-host (28:30)
It's test prep season.

ChuckMossEDU (28:31)
Yeah, we are definitely in test prep season. Well, and here in Virginia,

we have in elementary school, we have the student growth assessment in the fall, then the student growth assessment in the winter, and then the SOL test at the end of the year. So we actually have three testing sessions. ⁓ And so it feels like we're just pelunking from one testing session to the next, really.

Sophie, Co-host (28:58)
again.

Steve, Co-host (29:01)
Yeah, very, very cool. And so is TikTok your main destination? Is that where?

Sophie, Co-host (29:03)
Yeah.

ChuckMossEDU (29:09)
⁓ Well, ⁓ that's usually where I start because it lets me add music in the background. ⁓ And then I'll also post the same things out ⁓ to, I can't call it X, to Twitter and to Facebook. And you put on Facebook, it goes onto Instagram and usually to Trends or something like that. And then Blue Sky, ⁓ also LinkedIn and Snapchat.

And I don't know if that's how Snapchat's supposed to be used, but I'm just gonna have my boomer moment and that's how I'm gonna use it.

Sophie, Co-host (29:44)
That's great. I love it.

Steve, Co-host (29:45)
I love that. love that.

And so do have, so Chuck, is what people are seeing if they're watching the pod. And Chuck Moss, EDU, that, that to me, it seems like all of your social spaces, like if they looked that up. Yeah.

ChuckMossEDU (30:00)
Yep. Everything,

because I tried to do the don't be afraid to be awesome, but that was entirely too wordy. And then you abbreviate it. It doesn't look right. So just Chuck Moss, E-D-U. I think that'd be great. Although the other day I told, I did the, you know, create a cartoon, you know, everything you know about me through Chet's E-T. And I came back with another Chuck Moss who is a local politician up in Fairfax, Virginia.

Sophie, Co-host (30:08)
too long.

Yeah?

Steve, Co-host (30:23)
Mm. Mm-mm.

ChuckMossEDU (30:29)
⁓ so I feel like it doesn't know me well enough, but, you know, again, I, just, I, I try to get my message out there as much as I can. ⁓ and I love it when people reply back, ⁓ because it just, you know, I remember early on, one of my first messages was. If you want to make a difference when you go to the grocery store and someone left their cart in the parking lot, just roll it back with you. Just put somebody else's card away.

And our county administrator found me at a football. I do that. I'm the PA announcer for our football team. And so he motioned to me and I leaned out the window and he said, we need more of that. And I was like, that just told me that that was a moment where I connected, you know, with someone, ⁓ because that was meaningful to them. So, ⁓ and I, I love stuff like that. So I love talking to people, love connecting with people. ⁓

You know, Steve, when you DM me through TikTok or whatever, I'd send you my cell phone number right away. I'm like, yep, more people I can connect with and talk to, the better, you know?

Steve, Co-host (31:36)
Yeah. Yeah. And I just love that like, and I don't want to put words in your mouth, but it seems like the way you're connecting with people, it's actually not taking a whole lot of your bandwidth. If we can go back to that, you, you kind like what Sophie mentioned is like, you're just doing other things. Sometimes it's like early morning for you, right? Like you're just like, Hey, here are my thoughts here. My like, just get it out there in that one minute. Right. And then boom post. And I'm assuming like,

ChuckMossEDU (31:49)
No.

Steve, Co-host (32:06)
Because I see it like people are replying. I'm sure you're getting DMs like crazy folks like me. They're like, I love this and I want to be a part of it.

ChuckMossEDU (32:16)
Well, not everybody brings your brand of crazy, but yes, I'm hearing back from people all the time. And I love that. And I like to think of it as kind of like the intentionality of the moment, because in the moment I'm making that video, that is all I am doing. That's what I'm focusing on. But then I can get to the rest of my day.

Steve, Co-host (32:37)
Yeah. Yeah.

Sophie, Co-host (32:38)
Earlier

on in the show, you had mentioned that you got a card from someone being like, thank you for being a person that makes me feel like I've known you forever. And I immediately like, how did you do that? So do you know if there's anything that you intentionally do when you start going into like a new place or you meet someone new that you're conscious of that you do when you meet them?

ChuckMossEDU (33:03)
that I'm conscious of? No, not necessarily. But the thing is, I don't care who you are, if we start having a conversation, I want to know everything I can about you in the course of that conversation. If I'm going to be on a flight for an hour and a flight attendant, like I'm sitting near their drop seats, I'm going to ask them questions and things like that. When I go to

you know, the doctor or whatever, a new nurse or a new receptionist or something like that. like, hey, I give them a don't be afraid to be awesome sticker. I said, hey, so great to see you. Tell me about you, you know, and that's what I try to do. And I think it's just, Sophie, my parents taught me to care about people. And when you care about a person, you don't care about them because of what they can offer you. You care about them because they're a person worthy of being cared about.

And when people feel that, then I just think it makes it easier to be their leader when they know you care about, like I was taking some pictures of people for something we're getting ready to do. And one of the people said, why, why? And I said, because I need it and you trust me. And she said, yep, I do. And so she stopped and let me take the picture. And so just that, just being intentional being.

being genuine and being consistent. And when someone says I need something and you say I'll provide it, then you do. ⁓ Is there anything that I can think of programmatically that I do? No. But I make sure that people know I care about them as people.

Steve, Co-host (34:51)
And that's just it right there. It's just like, if we can just show people that we care, to me that's like half the battle, right? Like it just does all the things to make more greatness happen.

ChuckMossEDU (35:08)
And again, I think that if people understand that you're not looking for what they can give you, but you're just looking to give them something, that just means so much.

Steve, Co-host (35:18)
Hmm.

And it not being so transactional, right? Not it being like, well, I'm gonna give this to you so I get this. It's like, no, no, no, no, no. We're just givers and we're just trying to help each other, right? Yeah.

ChuckMossEDU (35:26)
Right.

Right.

Well, and it's funny because I did have somebody say, when I first met you, didn't think you were who you... She's like, nobody could be that. Nobody could be positive. And she goes, but after I was on a committee with you for a little while, I got it. I mean, that's just who you are. And that's what I try to be. And don't get me wrong. I have moments when I feel like I am not going to make it top of the mountain. I have MS.

And so there are days when nothing seems possible. ⁓ But if I show that to everybody, what good am I doing for them? What am I, you know what I mean? Like my job is to encourage in the moment ⁓ and not to seek to be encouraged. Although it's interesting how many people will encourage you because you encourage them, ⁓ you know, but you...

Steve, Co-host (36:30)
Mm. Mm-hmm.

ChuckMossEDU (36:33)
Even in your darkest moment, can you be a light for someone else?

Steve, Co-host (36:40)
Mm.

Well, cause life is weird and crazy and nuanced, right? Yeah.

ChuckMossEDU (36:49)
Yeah, you never

know.

Sophie, Co-host (36:55)
like that was a really powerful moment there. And I'm going to pivot just a little bit to your philosophy of don't be afraid to be awesome. And when I first read that, I was like, ah, he's gonna be cocky. And I was like, that sounds something like Steve would say. But I was like, when I read into it a little bit more.

ChuckMossEDU (37:03)
Sure.

Mm-hmm.

I know. Yep.

Sophie, Co-host (37:22)
Cause Steve brought you to me and was like, what about this guy? And I was like, okay. It took me a little bit to get on the bandwagon because I immediately am like, oh, he's overly confident. But that's not what it really means. So I would like for you to explain that for a bit.

ChuckMossEDU (37:37)
work.

Well, and you know, conversation, what now, we are very quick to say to other people, hey, you're awesome, you know, and, and just kind of move on, but and very slow to recognize it by ourselves because we're afraid of being cocky. But as parents, what have you ever sent your kid to a school where you didn't want their teachers to be awesome? I mean, I don't, I don't think you can find a parent who is really seeking mediocrity.

and the people that are gonna spend the year in front of their kid. And another thing is that kid may not get any awesome all day except what comes from that teacher or from that leader or from the person who does a checkout at the grocery store. But until you know what your awesome is, you're not able to share it because you don't know you have it.

And so you've got to be embraced. You got to embrace what makes you awesome. And I talked about those stickers earlier. I give out, don't be afraid to be awesome stickers like pieces of gum. I give them out all the time. But I have four or five different ones because not everybody's awesome is the same. And the awesome somebody needs in the moment could be the awesome that Steve brings, could be the awesome that you bring, Sophie, could be mine. It could be my wife's.

you know, what's the awesome somebody needs in the moment? And is your awesome able to fit that? And so if you know what your awesome is, you know what to share. And if you also recognize the awesomeness of the people around you, you'll be able to reach out and say, hey, this is someone who really needs what you can bring to the table. when I say don't be afraid to be awesome, I'm not saying walk around thumping your own chest. I'm saying be, embrace what makes you the

only person who's right for the moment.

Steve, Co-host (39:34)
The customization of awesome. That's the book title right there.

ChuckMossEDU (39:40)
you

Steve, Co-host (39:42)
⁓ Yeah, I love that and like, know, you're right like no parents want teachers phony it in or they want the best version of their teachers, right and so Yeah, I love that and and again, I just want to underscore like how you're like this looks different per person and That's okay. But then that also like resonates with your other kind of big thing of like the connections, right?

Sophie, Co-host (39:54)
Anyway.

Steve, Co-host (40:11)
connecting more awesome together.

ChuckMossEDU (40:14)
Well, and the way that Don't Be Afraid to Be Awesome kind of got started. Instead of doing a convocation, we do a professional conference when we bring our teachers back in our pre-service suite. They choose sessions. We have a keynote speaker. You know, we have had Adolf Brown. We've had Jimmy Costas. We've had all kinds of people that have been our keynote speaker. And when we provide those sessions, one of the and I was on the committee that put the first

conference together and they said, well, we want everybody, everybody on the committee to do a session. And I said, okay, I'll do something called, be afraid to be awesome. And then about three months later, the person in charge of the whole thing said, Hey, I need your slide deck. And I'm like, huh, so do I. And so that, that's kind of how it began. What, but then I just saw the power that the message, it just energized people.

And so I was like, this is more important than I thought. ⁓ And so that's what has allowed me to ⁓ present to ⁓ Vista and to the Southern Leadership Conference down in the Southwestern part of Virginia. And just the different places I've been, being able to bring that message. ⁓

And there's frankly, I'd love it when I walk around, I went to a conference one time and saw somebody who had one of my stickers. And that allowed me to have a conversation with them and say, hey, thanks for putting me on your laptop. Tell me about you. And we were able to connect and whatnot. And then I was able to go and speak to their tech opening for the year, keynote that and take that message to them. And it was that sense of connection. But it's at also.

the willingness to be vulnerable, the willingness to have those conversations and say, know, ⁓ if your awesome is not carrying you through the moment right now, is there a way I can help? Is there something I can help add to that?

Steve, Co-host (42:25)
I love that. So it sounds like you're, you kind of answered a question I was gonna ask you like in a bit, like maybe like next steps or other things that you haven't mentioned of like, how are you getting this message out ⁓ outside of social media, right? And so like, it does sound like you're speaking at conferences. It sounds like you are bringing conferences to your teachers, yeah.

ChuckMossEDU (42:47)
I am.

I will tell you that back in the role of assistant principal, there is not a whole lot of wiggle room. ⁓ I've thought about a book and how that's going to look and things like that. But my first and foremost dedication right now is the kids at Denver Elementary School. And so that's why my messages are usually recorded in the morning before I get in the car.

Because once I get in the car, I am full blown, you know, got my Eagle stuff on and, you know, and then when I get home, ⁓ that is downtime, that is, you know, family time, that sort of thing. So, but how I'm getting the message out is, again, through those social media posts. And the thing is I'm not doing it for recognition, I'm doing it to get the message out. And so I've...

Steve, Co-host (43:15)
Yeah.

Yep.

ChuckMossEDU (43:44)
feel like that next step wise, I love speaking in conversation. like to show anybody who's listening that's interested. I would love to come and have a chance to sit down with you and your staff or present however would look, would love that. ⁓ But until I retire, my focus is gonna be that elementary school because I have learned that they need me. ⁓ They need my principal too.

Steve, Co-host (44:05)
Mmm.

ChuckMossEDU (44:13)
My principal used to be my assistant principal when I was principal of the middle school in our county. And so she had to have a fantastic working dynamic. whenever she, you know, she is so good at what she does, and I always joke with her, I was like, you know, that's because I trained you to be this good. But she is a better principal than I ever was. And, but you know, we can...

Steve, Co-host (44:18)
Huh.

ChuckMossEDU (44:40)
We can laugh and joke and have conversations like that. And it just allows us to really, it's a real sense of co-leadership in that building.

Sophie, Co-host (44:49)
Love

that. That sounds so good.

Steve, Co-host (44:53)
Yes, it does. So Chuck, if you're not aware, Sophie and used to work together at an educational technology company. She taught me a little.

ChuckMossEDU (44:59)
okay.

So are you working together

Sophie, Co-host (45:05)
I trained him.

ChuckMossEDU (45:06)
now because of that or in spite of that?

Steve, Co-host (45:09)
We're not sure.

ChuckMossEDU (45:10)
Thank

Steve, Co-host (45:13)
We got

Sophie, Co-host (45:13)
I trained Steve.

ChuckMossEDU (45:15)
Okay.

Steve, Co-host (45:15)
She did,

she trained me and ⁓ so being on the business side of education, I didn't have the instructional coach background, right? But when I got into leadership, was almost like there's things that I did pick up on the business side that I do believe applies to leadership, particularly like ⁓ project management and organization and connecting with people. But yeah. ⁓

ChuckMossEDU (45:38)
absolutely.

Steve, Co-host (45:45)
A lot of that did have to do with how Sophie helped me when I was there. ⁓ Yeah, I can say that. Cool. So we're coming down to the tail end of our episode here. ⁓ So Chuck, this has been really fun, though we do have that one question that we ask all of our guests. that is, what is under the hat for you? Right? So in other words, what is top of mind? What is something that we should be talking more about?

ChuckMossEDU (46:17)
⁓ There are so many answers to that question, but I think that for me right now, what's in the top of my mind is how are we making sure that the teachers who are the most frontline of the people in our profession, how are we making sure that those teachers feel like we are connected to them and that we are hearing their voice?

And hearing their voice doesn't mean we make decisions based solely on how they feel, but making sure that they understand the why, making sure that they're at the table. Because we send down a lot of, because I said so, ⁓ I call it from the mountaintop. We send down these messages and we never talk about the why. And I've had the unique perspective of being

you know, starting in the classroom, going to central office, returning back to a building, and then being able to have conversations about some of those whys. ⁓ And I managed grants and I was able to understand the why behind where money goes and who can only use certain pots of money. But do we tell the teachers that? And then are we making decisions that make them feel like we are not connected to their needs? I just, in the last year,

Steve, Co-host (47:41)
Mm.

ChuckMossEDU (47:44)
I felt that more strongly than anything that the teachers, despite a lot of lip service to the other side of it, they don't feel like they're being heard and they don't feel like they have a voice.

Steve, Co-host (48:00)
and decisions of all types, right? Like the small ones and the big ones. And cause I've seen it, like some administrators are like, ⁓ we're definitely gonna have committees for new curriculum adoption, right? You see that a lot, but like the small things, if you go into a teacher break room, is the small things that they're like, I didn't know about this or I didn't like have some sort of like, you know.

ChuckMossEDU (48:04)
Yeah.

Steve, Co-host (48:29)
I wasn't at the table. And so for me, it's like looking at it holistically of like, what are all the different types of things that make a school function and how are teachers connected with all that?

ChuckMossEDU (48:40)
Yeah. and being in the role I'm in now, we're having a hard time finding substitutes. And so the principal and I are going in the classrooms and spending a whole day as a third grade teacher. And I'm going to tell you what, if you want to learn what your third graders are struggling with, try to teach them math when they have no concept of what you're talking about. But you're three lessons deep into it. And then you're kind of like, okay, that's a problem I didn't know we had.

And so then being able to ask different kinds of questions and making your PLC meetings more than 45 minutes where people stare at their watch, you know, you're really able to ask some questions about, is what I noticed. Tell me what we're doing to address this or how I can help you address this. You know, what, do you need for that? And I, not very popular with a lot of people, but I believe that if you're a central office leader, you should be in a building.

substituting at least once a semester. and Gary Brooks talks lot about that. Gary Brooks really has hit on that a lot. But I know, and I do know that people in central office have a lot to do. And I say that as someone who's been there, but I made it a priority in my position that twice a week I was in a building talking to a leader and knowing what I know now, just saying to that leader, hey,

Steve, Co-host (49:46)
⁓

ChuckMossEDU (50:09)
You got an unopened or an unfilled sub-spot? Let me come in for a day and do that. ⁓ And the last year, my position at the central office, I filled in as an AP at every single school in our system from ⁓ pre-K up to our alternative system. And I was also the administrator of our virtual academy that we ran during the shutdown. ⁓ And so I was able to see everybody's needs.

and what was going on. And it is eye opening. ⁓ Because when you are in it, you know, and you're, because when you say, why aren't the kids learning this? Well, because this is what's happening in the classroom. keep, because you know what, so again, unless you're in there, how do know that?

Steve, Co-host (51:01)
The leadership visibility is so key and it doesn't happen consistently across the landscape of it all, right? Yeah.

Sophie, Co-host (51:01)
Mm.

ChuckMossEDU (51:09)
And I know

Sophie, Co-host (51:10)
Mm-hmm.

ChuckMossEDU (51:10)
that

that's not on purpose, but that needs to be part of their intention to be seen, to be, you know.

Steve, Co-host (51:19)
Yeah.

Sophie, Co-host (51:19)
be seen and then to see what's going on. It's not the same if it's just a conversation as it is experiencing it. Like you can know, but then to understand is like a deeper level of knowledge that you can do something a little bit more with it. It's more impactful. Yeah.

Steve, Co-host (51:43)
100%. Chuck, this has been super fun. You are welcome back anytime. It's been a phenomenal conversation. We're gonna continue to follow you, share out your stuff, just your consistency online. And we're just happy to have you and we really appreciate you being here.

ChuckMossEDU (52:04)
Well, thank you. I was thrilled when you invited me. ⁓ And you say I'm welcome back anytime, invite me anytime. ⁓ In fact, if there's a Friday night and you have a guest canceled for Saturday, call me. ⁓ Because I, there is, we said before we started, ⁓ one the I said to Sophie was, I believe that interviews have become conversations are where the power is. And that's what we did today. And I can talk to anybody anytime.

you know, I'll bend your ear for an hour whether you're willing to listen to me or not.

Steve, Co-host (52:42)
Love that, love that. Yeah, it's been so good. Awesome. And for everyone that's watching slash listening, you know, we really appreciate all of the love and support that you're continuing to show us the likes, the subscribes, the jumping into the swag store, stuff of that nature. But until next time, friends, keep your hats on, but your minds open. Bye bye.

Sophie, Co-host (52:43)
That's fantastic.